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Post by az63 on Oct 23, 2014 9:44:59 GMT -5
Brad Wolverton (@bradwolverton) 10/22/14, 2:22 PM Basketball player enrollment in bogus classes, by coach: Dean Smith, 54; Bill Guthridge, 17; Matt Doherty, 42; Roy Williams, 167. twitter.com/bradwolverton?refsrc=emailContext might help with those numbers...but run and tell your story how you see fit Dean Smith coached until 1997 Guthridge coached 1997-2000 Doherty coached 2000-2003 Roy since 2003 Factor that in and you can see why the number is so much higher for Roy, and lower for the others. Doesn't mean Roy didn't know anything because I'm sure he did, but you need to tell the whole story with those numbers. This is much larger than an athletic scandal, as thousands of non-athletes were enrolled in those classes as well over the years. demourse - not sure I understand what you are saying about Roy Williams - please explain. BTW Dean Smith coached for roughly 30 years.
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Post by demourse on Oct 23, 2014 10:03:41 GMT -5
az63,
Read the article and then re-read my post. Unlike the UNC classes, I'm not going to give you the answer, but you probably need a hint: Over the 20 or so years the fake classes existed, look at the number of years coached by each during that same time period. This should point you in the right direction.
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Post by sbu79 on Oct 23, 2014 11:45:32 GMT -5
az63, Read the article and then re-read my post. Unlike the UNC classes, I'm not going to give you the answer, but you probably need a hint: Over the 20 or so years the fake classes existed, look at the number of years coached by each during that same time period. This should point you in the right direction. Let me know if I got this right: The number per coach per year roughly doubled from Guthridge to Doherty and has now remained steady with "Roy." Does that imply that this type of cheating has gone from the exception to the rule under the last 2 coaches?
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Post by demourse on Oct 23, 2014 15:42:03 GMT -5
I don't know about the exception becoming the rule, but again, you need to put things into the proper context.
Do you think on day 1, the university suddenly added 30 or 40 fake classes? No, they added these courses over time as demand increased, and as they continued to get away with it. Therefore, the longer the cheating system was in place, the more athletes it impacted.
According to wikipedia (the most trusted source of info) the number automobile fatalities in the US during 1910 was 1,599. That number soared to 33,561 in 2012. Therefore, using your logic, the cars in 1910 were much safer than the cars in 2012 (that fun fact was brought to you by the Citizens For Logic). Still reading along....great, I hope you are learning.
I haven't seen a published report on the total numbers of players coached. It's not as easy as 100% roster turnover every 4 years. You have players transfer, leave early, or transfer-in from JUCO. Roy's average roster turnover rate is probably higher than Guthridge or Doherty, so you can't take a simple average. For example, if you have a 4-year player taking these classes each year, it is still only one player counted. If a 1-and-done player took a class, and his roster spot is filled next year by a player that takes a class then you are at 2. Get it? It's important to take things into context and to use logic.
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Post by derhut on Oct 23, 2014 15:59:32 GMT -5
interesting take on things...for me, it is pretty simple...they have been cheating for a long time, the higher ups knew stuff was going on, didn't stop it and they got caught. this case reeks of either the coaches were in on it or they had a severe lack of institutional control...hammer 'em !
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Post by agoo on Oct 23, 2014 18:48:27 GMT -5
The fact that ESPN's front page has one UNC related article, and its about Roy Williams going to a ceremony at Kansas, tells me all I need to know about how this is going to pan out. Some blustery press conference from the NCAA about standards and accountability and what looks like a huge sanction...that gets completely eliminated in 16 months.
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Post by az63 on Oct 23, 2014 19:02:19 GMT -5
Yup - you can bet that ESPN will do all it can to push this to the background.
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Post by ceharv on Oct 23, 2014 19:56:22 GMT -5
Hold on a second here guys. The NCAA expects and encourages its "member institutions" to self-investigate and report. As you should recall, that's what we did, and we "invited" the NCAA to watch our investigation as we did it, a factor cited by the NCAA as mitigating the stiffer penalties we might have faced otherwise. I suggest that before people cry cover-up just because UNC is self investigating, let's at least see how this plays out. As the story points out, the results so far show that the wrong-doing is MORE extensive then originally thought/reported, so that is not a sign of a cover-up, at least so far. Let' s see where it goes, and what the NCAA then does before playing the "poor us, we got screwed and the big boys always get to walk away free" card. Who knows, that might still happen, but I suggest letting it play out and see what comes about - just my thought, as is that this sure sems to take "lack of institutional control" to a new level (or depth might be the better term).
Unrelated questions - are team practices at this time open to the viewing public? And does the team conduct practices on Saturdays? I will be up to Bonas to serve as a judge in a moot court competition being held on campus on Nov 8 and 9 and might want to head over to the RC to take in the sights it the answers are yes to both.
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Post by efsboca on Oct 23, 2014 21:19:16 GMT -5
Hold on a second here guys. The NCAA expects and encourages its "member institutions" to self-investigate and report. As you should recall, that's what we did, and we "invited" the NCAA to watch our investigation as we did it, a factor cited by the NCAA as mitigating the stiffer penalties we might have faced otherwise. I suggest that before people cry cover-up just because UNC is self investigating, let's at least see how this plays out. As the story points out, the results so far show that the wrong-doing is MORE extensive then originally thought/reported, so that is not a sign of a cover-up, at least so far. Let' s see where it goes, and what the NCAA then does before playing the "poor us, we got screwed and the big boys always get to walk away free" card. Who knows, that might still happen, but I suggest letting it play out and see what comes about - just my thought, as is that this sure sems to take "lack of institutional control" to a new level (or depth might be the better term). Unrelated questions - are team practices at this time open to the viewing public? And does the team conduct practices on Saturdays? I will be up to Bonas to serve as a judge in a moot court competition being held on campus on Nov 8 and 9 and might want to head over to the RC to take in the sights it the answers are yes to both. Actually we can play that card now. Don't forget, this is a follow up report that found a more far reaching scandal because it's primary participants assisted in this investigation. However, the earlier report acknowledged the fake classes, but nothing was done. The NCAA at one point even stated that because the course was available to non athletes it was not an athletic issue. Hopefully, they will get hammered and have to vacate three national championships.
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Post by ceharv on Oct 24, 2014 9:26:26 GMT -5
efsboca - I respectfully disagree. If the NCAA or UNC had said - "and that's the end of the matter", then certainly play the card, but that hasn't happened. From what I can tell, the investigation is not completed, and neither the school nor the NCAA has announced what is to be done about what was found, if anything. I agree they should certainly get hammered and while I am concerned they will not - or it will be so perceived, I still think the better course is to let it play out. I confess, however that I am perhaps more sensitive then most here to the "poor little us, we got screwed" attitude, as I think our sins were in fact some of the most egregious ever and I cringe at the thought that revisionist historians might be attempting to minimize that.
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Post by res on Oct 24, 2014 9:51:52 GMT -5
Do you think on day 1, the university suddenly added 30 or 40 fake classes? No, they added these courses over time as demand increased, and as they continued to get away with it. Therefore, the longer the cheating system was in place, the more athletes it impacted. Yes, but there's more to it. The fake classes were not created specifically for athletes. They stayed under the radar for quite some time. Over time, the "academic counselors" to members of the football and basketball teams became aware of them and increasingly began to direct their charges to them. These classes were a fraud created by the black studies department. Only later did members of the athletic department become complicit.
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Post by dadster81 on Oct 24, 2014 10:00:45 GMT -5
JEOPARDY QUESTION - name one thing that North Carolina, Syracuse, and Roger Goodell are all searching for?
ANSWER - their backbone
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Post by Bona84 on Oct 24, 2014 10:06:20 GMT -5
Brad Wolverton (@bradwolverton) 10/22/14, 2:22 PM Basketball player enrollment in bogus classes, by coach: Dean Smith, 54; Bill Guthridge, 17; Matt Doherty, 42; Roy Williams, 167. twitter.com/bradwolverton?refsrc=emailContext might help with those numbers...but run and tell your story how you see fit Dean Smith coached until 1997 Guthridge coached 1997-2000 Doherty coached 2000-2003 Roy since 2003 Factor that in and you can see why the number is so much higher for Roy, and lower for the others. Doesn't mean Roy didn't know anything because I'm sure he did, but you need to tell the whole story with those numbers. This is much larger than an athletic scandal, as thousands of non-athletes were enrolled in those classes as well over the years. I may have missed something, but it seems to me that all derhut did was post somebody's tweet. Why get on him and accuse him for that?
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Post by Bona84 on Oct 24, 2014 10:09:35 GMT -5
I don't know about the exception becoming the rule, but again, you need to put things into the proper context. Get it? It's important to take things into context and to use logic. Here's the proper context. If the reports are true, UNC cheated, in a big way.
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Post by derhut on Oct 24, 2014 10:18:14 GMT -5
thanks '84...no harm no foul
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