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Post by efsboca on Jul 10, 2014 7:11:25 GMT -5
That's possible. And if that is the case, it puts SBU in a catch 22. As I have stated, a lot of top students are turned off to SBU due to the low admission stats. At the same time students with low admissions stats don't like to be challenged through rigor. I would argue, and I think many would agree, that the philosophy (and Theology) courses at SBU are one of the key reasons that students develop the reasoning and rhetoric that they alums have been known and respected for. When you can't appease both camps (on one campus) which one do you try to appease? (Sent via mobile) Pinnum I dont think its because the Clare courses are so difficult - its because students have to take them and they are not very interesting to them. Socal Kid can correct me - but its not a choice of "watering down" to easier courses - we never took more than the 9hrs Theology & Philosophy - and I did not feel we were watered down. Some students wish to double major in the 4 years and the Clare courses interfere with that - thats not students looking for an "easy way out". Socalkid has a great suggestion - ask the kids for input....what made them choose SBU, what made their friends go elsewhere, if they could change 2 things what would it be? etc etc etc Wish I could offer specifics on the Clare more than that.... I'd like to know more about Clare College curriculum as well, but I remember the Theology and Philosophy course. I really enjoyed the Theology courses because they were not designed to throw Jesus Christ down your thought. We learned about multiple religions, and I specifically remember the course where we read a book by Hans Kung, the guy who was excommunicated by the Church for his writings which made you question your beliefs. It was a great course. Who could forget Dr. Bob's Christian marriage course. Not sure I learned anything, but I got an A, had some great laughs, and took Donovan's abuse for a semester. The philosophy courses, IMO, were a waste of time. Critical Thinking was good, but many of the other classes were bull@#$% courses where the professor wanted to force his philosophy down your throat and if you didn't become a zombie, you did not do well. I would much rather have taken some other courses in my major or in other liberal arts areas, so I can see where it would be a turnoff.
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Post by 123Rob on Jul 10, 2014 7:35:21 GMT -5
Dr. Bob thanks you for your kind attention.
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Post by res on Jul 10, 2014 7:42:05 GMT -5
For those of you who have expressed interest and have access to the internet, you will find that Google can be very helpful. Clare College curriculum
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Friar
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Posts: 309
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Post by Friar on Jul 10, 2014 7:51:50 GMT -5
According to my son, who currently attends SBU, the Clare courses consist of 12 credit hours each of philosophy and theology. That adds up to 24 credits versus the 18 credits pre-Clare College. I really do understand where the university is coming from with the more emphasis on philosophy and theology but I do believe the old way of doing things were better. You can still call it Clare College. The Clare College current set up probably does keep a fair amount of students away. It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation to student enrollment pre and post Clare College. St. John Fisher for example makes each student take at least 15 credit hours of their "core courses" which include a mix of classes to include philosophy, theology and other classes. That may be to loose but at least it is something to consider. That said, philosophy and theology are extremely important and valuable classes. Bonas should require them.
To clarify a point I made yesterday which was poorly stated. I don't believe all criticism should be directed toward Sister Margaret. The Board of Trustees along with other higher up administration should be equally to blame. This doesn't mean I feel they are doing a bad job by the way. We all make mistakes and our judgement is questioned all the time.
With a stagnant or even slightly declining enrollment and the mess by not developing the property across from the university I question the response time of those people for making the decisions. Yes, there are many factors and circumstances you must consider. I get that. Bonas had a plan to have someone build a bowling alley and other student developed activities and years later we have nothing. Yes, Community Bank is building on that property along with the expansion of a PT/OT practice. All that has nothing to do with student development.
We need to be bold, aggressive and have vision. With that said I support Sister Margaret 100%.
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Post by gdub2009 on Jul 10, 2014 8:17:28 GMT -5
Clare College has some good things and bad things just like anything else. I didn't think the Theology courses were bad at all. Philosophy was okay. Intellectual Journey made you think a lot. The only course I really had a beef with was Natural World. Quite honestly I didn't want any more Science courses after high school. Also, having a lab for core course was pretty annoying in my opinion. Clare college didn't stop me from getting a major and a minor, with basically a pretty easy Senior year credit load.
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poot
New Member
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Post by poot on Jul 10, 2014 9:29:11 GMT -5
I would think that the Clare College curriculum would be more of an issue of retention than recruitment, and Bona's retention rate is very good. It's not been my experience that students evaluate the curriculum outside of their major with any particular level of detail to be dissuaded from attending. For parents, it's probably a toss up. Some might like the rigor and structure, while others, given the constant drum beat of "is college worth it?," might question the fact that 1/5th of their child's 120 credit hours will be dedicated to courses that emphasize intellectual growth rather than job-related skill building (although I'm sure we'd all argue that the former is a prerequisite for the latter).
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Post by sony on Jul 10, 2014 11:07:26 GMT -5
I'm completely serious! The previous suggestion was to ask current students why they chose Bona's. I think it would be beneficial to ask students who chose to go elsewhere, if there was anything that Bona's had, or didn't have, offered, or didn't offer, required or didn't require - that made hem decide against coming to Bona's or decide to go to the school they did choose.
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Post by class70 on Jul 10, 2014 12:20:10 GMT -5
Without digging up my transcript I believe we all had to take 15 hours of Theology and 18 hours of Philosophy when I was a student. It didn't interfere with my taking whatever courses I wanted. It took me only seven semesters to go through without summer school courses and I had way more credits than needed to graduate. One of my brothers did take summer courses and managed to do the whole bit in three years with strong enough grades to get into Cornell Law School. I don't know what sort of person gets turned off by theology and philosophy; they address the eternal issues that separate man from the animal kingdom. This has always been an advantage of Catholic/Christian education. I have never read Wm. F. Buckley, Jr.'s "God and Man at Yale" but I imagine it deals rather effectively with the alternative. Now, let's get back to basketball, preferably in a new thread. It didn't look like Denzel Gregg did very well in his first two games in the King of Kings. Any word on yesterday's results?
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Post by Bonas08 on Jul 10, 2014 12:25:05 GMT -5
I hated Clare College. Many of the classes I had were taught by the most liberal professors on campus, who basically graded their way or the highway (what a way to allow students to be open minded and think critically!) I constantly had the struggle between spitting back the garbage they were trying to feed me just to get the good grade, or speak my mind, allowing the rest of the students to realize not everything was as one sided as the prof made it seem, but then deal with the possible bad grade. Usually I spoke my mind and dealt with the grade. Thank God the business classes werent like that. The only business class I couldnt stand was "Philosophy of Economics" that at the time was required for a econ minor. The prof (who I wont give names, however I do recall a classmate at the end of the semester wrote on the teacher feedback form that the teacher looks like steven seagal) basically was praising Karl Marx and attempting to convince business majors that communism is better than capitalism.. What a waste of time.
In the end, yes some "core" classes should be required, but the Clare of 2004-2008 was a big waste in my opinion. I would have rather used that time in more Business classes
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pbd76
Junior Member
Posts: 378
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Post by pbd76 on Jul 10, 2014 13:36:58 GMT -5
No, because a graduate Catholic law school is an excellent idea. The idea that we would have a third tier law school (sorry exactly what is your definition of a third tier or is that just more elitist rhetoric - again) is just rubbish. Law is still a very popular course of study. I know it does not trump banking and the study of Wall Street repo tactics, but it is still viable, and prestigious. A good fit for a liberal arts school like Bonas. A good revenue generator too. First off, where do you get off calling me an elitist? Just because I think a law school at Bona's is a terrible idea? Have you looked into the depressed placement rates for current law school grads? There is already way too much supply. And we would be third tier due to our location, and not having the enormous sums of money it takes to get a law school accredited, staffed, and recruit students. Go back to besieging Fort Duquesne or whatever.
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pbd76
Junior Member
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Post by pbd76 on Jul 10, 2014 13:38:49 GMT -5
The Economics major was dropped in the mid-90's when Wickenheiser implemented the university's financial exigency plan, thus allowing him to cut several tenured faculty. There were very few majors and only a handful of students in the upper-level electives in the late 80's and early 90's. There is currently an economics minor, which includes the core intro & intermediate micro/macro classes and an econometrics course offered through the Finance Dept. I was one of those Econ majors in the '70's, and while there weren't many students in that major, I thought the course study was far more rigorous than what the BBA majors had to endure. I'm still po'ed they dropped it.
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Post by sbu79 on Jul 10, 2014 13:54:54 GMT -5
I hated Clare College. Many of the classes I had were taught by the most liberal professors on campus, who basically graded their way or the highway (what a way to allow students to be open minded and think critically!) I constantly had the struggle between spitting back the garbage they were trying to feed me just to get the good grade, or speak my mind, allowing the rest of the students to realize not everything was as one sided as the prof made it seem, but then deal with the possible bad grade. Usually I spoke my mind and dealt with the grade. Thank God the business classes werent like that. The only business class I couldnt stand was "Philosophy of Economics" that at the time was required for a econ minor. The prof (who I wont give names, however I do recall a classmate at the end of the semester wrote on the teacher feedback form that the teacher looks like steven seagal) basically was praising Karl Marx and attempting to convince business majors that communism is better than capitalism.. What a waste of time. In the end, yes some "core" classes should be required, but the Clare of 2004-2008 was a big waste in my opinion. I would have rather used that time in more Business classes As I look at those Clare courses, they strike me as equivalents of the core requirements of my time - with perhaps more constraining of choice. I remember having to take some prescribed classes for Theo and Phil and English, but having freedom to take elective classes to fill minimum requirements. The heavy Franciscan emphasis of some of the classes is understandable given the institution's heritage, obviously, but I can see where students that have not bought into that philosophy of life yet finding it to be heavy handed. As for "Philosophy of Economics", there is none. Economics is the science of allocating limited resources among unlimited wants and the only model that has proven itself over the course of human history in the area of economics is the "Rational Evaluative Maximizing Man (Person if you prefer)". That's why Theology, Philosophy and the Arts are so important in a liberal education (John Locke anyone?). Left to his (her) own base instincts, the REMM can be a dangerous being. After 2 solid years in Economics and Business curriculum, the most powerful class I took as a Senior was Dr. Martini's Modern American Literature class, and the single biggest impact was from "The Grapes of Wrath."
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Post by jh on Jul 10, 2014 17:34:25 GMT -5
I always thought the 9 hours of Philosophy and 9 hours of Theology were fine. I always had one huge pet peeve though.
A ton of St Bona grads really had no idea who St Bonaventure the saint was (when did he live what was he known for etcc) and what his relation to St Francis was and what were the basic tenants of Franciscanism.
There should have been a course that taught all of this to every student at the University - instead even with the required 18hrs of Philosophy & Theology - 90% of the student body never took a single course on Franciscanism or the life of St Francis or St Bonaventure. Everything I learned on those topics I learned in high school at St Francis HS,- none was required at the original Franciscan College in the USA - it was shocking.
The University also never really celebrated the Feast of St Francis - no day off - no big outside mass - pretty much nothing. I'm sure there would have been a mass said in a chapel somewhere. We couldnt afford to lose a day of classes because we wanted a longer thnxgvng break or longer xmas break? This saint is why the University even exists - not worthy of a full day of recognition? Especially when it luckily falls in the 1st week of October when the campus is at its best.
You did not need an entire curriculum for this - simply 1 of the 3 required Philosophy courses be dedicated to Franciscanism and 1 of the 3 required Theology courses dedicated to the life of St Bonaventure & St Francis.
Know your roots...
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Post by route16 on Jul 10, 2014 22:31:23 GMT -5
I always thought the 9 hours of Philosophy and 9 hours of Theology were fine. I always had one huge pet peeve though. A ton of St Bona grads really had no idea who St Bonaventure the saint was (when did he live what was he known for etcc) and what his relation to St Francis was and what were the basic tenants of Franciscanism. There should have been a course that taught all of this to every student at the University - instead even with the required 18hrs of Philosophy & Theology - 90% of the student body never took a single course on Franciscanism or the life of St Francis or St Bonaventure. Everything I learned on those topics I learned in high school at St Francis HS,- none was required at the original Franciscan College in the USA - it was shocking. The University also never really celebrated the Feast of St Francis - no day off - no big outside mass - pretty much nothing. I'm sure there would have been a mass said in a chapel somewhere. We couldnt afford to lose a day of classes because we wanted a longer thnxgvng break or longer xmas break? This saint is why the University even exists - not worthy of a full day of recognition? Especially when it luckily falls in the 1st week of October when the campus is at its best. You did not need an entire curriculum for this - simply 1 of the 3 required Philosophy courses be dedicated to Franciscanism and 1 of the 3 required Theology courses dedicated to the life of St Bonaventure & St Francis. Know your roots... I think the course you're thinking of is the mandatory Clare 207 The Catholic Franciscan Heritage (affectionately called Cat/Fran). It's been a few years, but I remember at least one component of the course including Francis/Bonaventure biographies. We read a few of their writings as well. Here's the course description: CLAR 207. The Catholic-Franciscan Heritage This course provides a critical reflection on the essential elements of the Catholic-Franciscan tradition. After identifying traditional core beliefs students will reflect critically upon these by providing support for selected beliefs, offering responses to challenges, suggesting elucidations of concepts inherent in beliefs, investigating the presuppositions of the practices manifesting those beliefs, and the like. Issues of religious pluralism and interreligious dialogue will be addressed.
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Post by Pinnum on Jul 11, 2014 7:29:37 GMT -5
I have been trying to avoid this thread as long as possible. I am sure few will agree but here is my way out......Assumption here is that higher ed is unaffordable unless you have no money. Finalize the Hibbert acquisition and basically turn into a community college, with relatively low cost tuition that attracts students from a from a 50 mile radius. Turn it into a feeder systems so folks finish the last 2 years at SBU. Suggestions of Law and Nursing majors are down right laughable. I have said it before and I will say it again, petroleum engineering is the way to go. Goes against the PC crowd but that is were the money is...... saved the Sabers and will likely save the Bills What you first described is the Mercyhurst and Mercyhurst Northeast College model. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercyhurst_North_EastYour second point, I answered in another thread: bonabandwagon.proboards.com/thread/12356/ideas-improve-sbu?page=1&scrollTo=113702
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