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Post by Pinnum on May 21, 2014 8:57:45 GMT -5
BrownIndiana11 and kcSBU03 - I do understand what you are trying to argue but this is a macro issue and you're treating it like a micro issue. This is more about the University than it is about the basketball. The neutral game in Buffalo (or previously, in Rochester) is more valuable for the University than a home game. This is not Niagara requiring SBU's leg of the series be played in a neutral site (which would be in line with the Duke/UNC argument). Rather, this is SBU saying they want to play in downtown Buffalo (or Rochester) and Niagara is agreeing to participate in the event. Think of this more as being what Syracuse has done, over the years, to turn NYC into a Syracuse Basketball City. It worked out well for them and was the key to seeing an increase in their investment in football and playing some football games in NYC. Most people understand the issues SBU basketball faces and I think most would agree that this can be an effective tool to help address some of those issues. If you're looking at how this one game could potentially impact one game this season then you're taking a very narrow view. To be honest, you remind me of the Louisville fans that were upset when Louisville started scheduling Thursday night football games in an effort to draw more attention to the team and the school. As many of you know, it was a huge success. I hear what you are saying, pinnum. But, I'm just not sure that playing Niagara in Buffalo is going to turn Buffalo into "Bona Basketball City", to use your Syracuse/NYC example. I'm not against playing Little 3 or Big 4 games at FNC, but I'm not sure a rotation of only giving up home games to do so is best. I'd prefer games against teams from so-called stronger conferences to be played at FNC or Blue Cross Arena, since Niagara, Canisius and UB are schools that Bona's can generally get to come to the Reilly Center. I agree with you! But the problem is that SBU is struggling to get better teams to play them at FNC or BCA. Niagara stepped up and did SBU a favor by moving their game to Rochester when SBU couldn't get a BCS team to come in for the game. The game in Rochester drew 4,700 fans to the game. (This is more than the 4,000 that watched their last meeting at the RC.) These are, in large part, fans that would not have watched SBU play all year. It is a new group of fans and it is a good number of fans for a game no matter the location. Yes, there were likely NU fans there and it may have helped market NU as much as SBU. But what does SBU care if it results in a boost in enrollment and donations to NU if it also does the same for SBU? The best way to ensure that it benefits SBU more than the other schools is to have SBU be the constant. If the game at FNC and BCA are always SBU games and the opponent changes then it will be identified as being an SBU event and will help bring a presence to those cities and increase the SBU brand.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2014 9:21:30 GMT -5
This is an interesting argument, but you are wrong when you say Niagara did us a "favor" by agreeing to play us in Rochester. I am 100% sure that any of the other Atlantic 10 teams would do the same if we asked them for the "favor" of not having to play in the RC. Playing a game in Buffalo is fine and if we make more money there that is great. I just think we should not be giving away a Niagara home game for it.
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Post by Pinnum on May 21, 2014 9:32:45 GMT -5
This is an interesting argument, but you are wrong when you say Niagara did us a "favor" by agreeing to play us in Rochester. I am 100% sure that any of the other Atlantic 10 teams would do the same if we asked them for the "favor" of not having to play in the RC. Playing a game in Buffalo is fine and if we make more money there that is great. I just think we should not be giving away a Niagara home game for it. You would rather "give away a game" that would impact the conference standing and seeding for the qualifier to the NCAA tournament? I have actually thought that playing an A10 game at BCA would be a good move, so I am not disagreeing with that. I don't recall if the A10 bylaws allow a team to refuse an alternate site for a conference game but I can't imagine a team like Fordham or Rhode Island having a problem with playing in Rochester. With that said, I don't know what A10 teams would be as profitable as Niagara (due to their alumni base) for an event SBU is assuming all the risk for. Sure, VCU or Dayton would probably attract good numbers, but is that the game you want to give up the home court advantage for?
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Post by kcSBU03 on May 21, 2014 9:33:26 GMT -5
Niagara did us a favor? Youve got to be joking. We did them a favor not making them come to the RC. I was at the Niagara game at Blue Cross and of those 4700 there were probably at least 1000 Niagara fans. The Rochester and Buffalo games when used to attract bigger teams, are a great tool for the university. When we schedule home games vs teams that would normally come to the RC, it is not a good tool.
And no, 87 did not advocate playing an A 10 game there, he was merely pointing out the stupidity in saying Niagara did us a favor because anybody in the country would prefer to play us neutral than at the RC
Really, thank you so much Niagara for agreeing to play us 20 minutes from your campus instead of on ours. We owe you one!
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2014 9:38:53 GMT -5
Ahh you got me Pinnum. I like to think I can recognize people who are slinging crap just to get a rise out of everyone. Good job. Enjoy your debates with all who choose to engage.
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Post by Pinnum on May 21, 2014 10:39:12 GMT -5
Just in case some of you are interested in seeing the attendance history of games at Blue Cross Arena:
2013 Niagara 4,758 2012 NC State 5,802 2011 Virginia Tech 5,285 2010 St John's 4,181 2006 West Virginia 5,160 2003 Syracuse 11,650 2001 Charlotte 6,678
As many of you know, in the last few years, the landscape has changed and it is VERY hard to get BCS schools to travel for games due to their television contracts and other factors.
To compare, SBU averaged 3,928 in attendance this past season at the RC and that includes students that attend the games free of charge.
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Post by tastylicks on May 21, 2014 11:25:18 GMT -5
Playing at First Niagara or Blue Cross Arena once a year in the non-conference = good idea
Playing at First Niagara or Blue Cross Arena against NU by giving up a home game in the process = TERRIBLE
It's even worse since we gave up the home game last time against them. I really can't believe they are doing the same again without Niagara returning the favor. Makes me shake my head.
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Post by tastylicks on May 21, 2014 11:32:55 GMT -5
Just in case some of you are interested in seeing the attendance history of games at Blue Cross Arena: 2013 Niagara 4,758 2012 NC State 5,802 2011 Virginia Tech 5,285 2010 St John's 4,181 2006 West Virginia 5,160 2003 Syracuse 11,650 2001 Charlotte 6,678 As many of you know, in the last few years, the landscape has changed and it is VERY hard to get BCS schools to travel for games due to their television contracts and other factors. To compare, SBU averaged 3,928 in attendance this past season at the RC and that includes students that attend the games free of charge. I'm not sure what you are trying to argue... I look at that and I see that they aren't really drawing THAT much more anyway, especially when they do it with Niagara (who would play at the RC).. if you aren't going to draw that much more, and you aren't drawing any increased attention with a big name. Why bother? It's a lot more economically friendly to play in your own house, all things considered. If it's against a team that won't play at the RC or would draw large numbers, then you would actually have an argument. Im not going to look up the attendance figures for the SBU-Niagara games at the RC, but Im betting they average above 4,000, especially if it was played on thanksgiving weekend like that one was. If you can draw virtually the same at home AND they will come there - why give up that home game? That's dumb.
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Post by tastylicks on May 21, 2014 11:42:16 GMT -5
Niagara did us a favor? Youve got to be joking. We did them a favor not making them come to the RC. I was at the Niagara game at Blue Cross and of those 4700 there were probably at least 1000 Niagara fans. The Rochester and Buffalo games when used to attract bigger teams, are a great tool for the university. When we schedule home games vs teams that would normally come to the RC, it is not a good tool. And no, 87 did not advocate playing an A 10 game there, he was merely pointing out the stupidity in saying Niagara did us a favor because anybody in the country would prefer to play us neutral than at the RC Really, thank you so much Niagara for agreeing to play us 20 minutes from your campus instead of on ours. We owe you one! I agree .The Blue Cross Arena or the First Niagara Center should be reserved for unique opportunities only. (if that opportunity doesn't present itself in a given year, than we don't play there) By volunteering a game that's not unique, a perennial home game vs. Niagara or an obligated home game vs. an A10 it cheapens the draw for fans and for future endeavors. You have to attract these teams as well to come here. The big boys are going to be less likely to come play at these arenas if they see that Niagara played there the year before for example and it only drew 4,000 last season. They want to promote their program in Buff/ROC too and it looks less attractive when they see that.
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Post by Pinnum on May 21, 2014 12:05:33 GMT -5
You're getting caught up in the numbers and not what they represent. You think they are equal but they are not. Games at the RC draw the same fans game in and game out. Having 13 games at the RC is not likely to command a higher season ticket price than a 12 game home slate. In fact the laws of diminishing returns comes into play as they market is saturated. Additionally, the one game will not likely increase in an increase in alumni giving, or an increase in enrollment, which are two vital metrics that the University needs to address.
It is no secret that average attendance, both by the local community and the student body, has diminished over the years. In fact, in the last five years, home attendance and the on the court performance have seemed to be an inverse function rather than moving in concert as you would assume.
The local community in Olean is not in a position to support the program financially. The population has declined and the income per capital is also down. The SBU program can not derive the type of support that is needed to sustain a program in the Atlantic 10 if they take such a narrow approach. Falling short of the goal to raise $50k for the BAF should have been an eye opener for a lot of people. Not only did SBU fall short but the target was missed by nearly 50%.
So what is needed? SBU needs to engage more of their alumni, increase the reach of their brand, and needs to continue to have a standard of excellence.
When SBU has 4,000 at the RC it is not equal to having 4,000 at FCN or BCA. There are, probably, no fewer than 2,000 people with a connection to, or interest in, SBU attending the game that will not be visiting the SBU campus that year. This is important and it is necessary that the school engage this group. Additionally, they are able to charge higher ticket prices, not only for the novelty of a D1 basketball game (in the case of BCA) but also because these areas have the means, economically, to support the higher prices. Even if you say, as kcSBU03 did, that 20% of those in attendance are cheering for the opposition, it is that 20% that is covering the facility usage enabling SBU to engage their alumni and hopefully generate more donations and more high quality applicants.
The Little Three series is still important to a lot of people. But the significance of the game is greater to the older generations (often a target demographic for the very important estate giving). The largest concentration of these groups are located in the Buffalo and Rochester metro areas. Bringing the game to them and engaging them is very important to SBU.
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Post by kcSBU03 on May 21, 2014 12:19:25 GMT -5
You're getting caught up in the numbers and not what they represent. You think they are equal but they are not. Games at the RC draw the same fans game in and game out. Having 13 games at the RC is not likely to command a higher season ticket price than a 12 game home slate. In fact the laws of diminishing returns comes into play as they market is saturated. Additionally, the one game will not likely increase in an increase in alumni giving, or an increase in enrollment, which are two vital metrics that the University needs to address. It is no secret that average attendance, both by the local community and the student body, has diminished over the years. In fact, in the last five years, home attendance and the on the court performance have seemed to be an inverse function rather than moving in concert as you would assume. The local community in Olean is not in a position to support the program financially. The population has declined and the income per capital is also down. The SBU program can not derive the type of support that is needed to sustain a program in the Atlantic 10 if they take such a narrow approach. Falling short of the goal to raise $50k for the BAF should have been an eye opener for a lot of people. Not only did SBU fall short but the target was missed by nearly 50%. So what is needed? SBU needs to engage more of their alumni, increase the reach of their brand, and needs to continue to have a standard of excellence. When SBU has 4,000 at the RC it is not equal to having 4,000 at FCN or BCA. There are, probably, no fewer than 2,000 people with a connection to, or interest in, SBU attending the game that will not be visiting the SBU campus that year. This is important and it is necessary that the school engage this group. Additionally, they are able to charge higher ticket prices, not only for the novelty of a D1 basketball game (in the case of BCA) but also because these areas have the means, economically, to support the higher prices. Even if you say, as kcSBU03 did, that 20% of those in attendance are cheering for the opposition, it is that 20% that is covering the facility usage enabling SBU to engage their alumni and hopefully generate more donations and more high quality applicants. The Little Three series is still important to a lot of people. But the significance of the game is greater to the older generations (often a target demographic for the very important estate giving). The largest concentration of these groups are located in the Buffalo and Rochester metro areas. Bringing the game to them and engaging them is very important to SBU. I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying here but I have to bring up a few counter points. Additionally, the one game will not likely increase in an increase in alumni giving, or an increase in enrollment, which are two vital metrics that the University needs to address. This is precisely what I was saying earlier. If you want to increase exposure, post season basketball is the best tool. Playing neutral games against teams we can play at home do not line up with that goal. Look at the exposure we got after Gathers' buzzer beater vs SLU. We were all over ESPN for 10 hours and google searches involving us sky rocketed during that stretch. Its publicity that you cant buy. Doing well in the post season gets everyone's hearts beating and wallets open. After we won the A10 in 2012, the Bonathon called me the next day and I was all hopped up on brown and white and doubled my donation from the previous year. Playing NU in Buffalo increases our chances of losing the game and hurts our post season chances more so than playing them at home. You also fail to include the cost to rent FNC or Blue Cross and the overhead to the university. They have to move their whole in game operations for the day, plus hotels and food since its a road game. They dont get a lick of the concessions or parking I bet. Someone broke it down on here awhile ago on the cost to do this and it wasnt usually in our best interest. With your attendance figures, the main thing you dont even mention is the Niagara game was a Saturday afternoon on a Holiday weekend when many alums are back in the area and they still only drew 4700 (with around 1000 being NU fans). Those other games with higher level teams were all during the week and drew better crowds. The conclusion is nobody gives a crap when we play NU besides us and NU. So play them on campus and try to get someone worth seeing to make the Rochester/Buffalo games worth it
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Post by bonaman2013 on May 21, 2014 12:20:20 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but playing at FNC costs Bona a lot more money than playing at BCA. I'm pretty sure Bona does not pay any rent to play at Blue Cross, and I think all they pay in Rochester is for staffing and 15% of the ticket sales.
I'm pretty sure in Buffalo you have to pay both of the above fees plus a flat fee for playing at FNC.
Last time we played a Little Three team in Buffalo it only drew about ~3,900 in attendance. I can't imagine getting more than 5K for a game at FNC, and considering all the costs, it probably wouldn't be worth it. Obviously you wouldn't want to play NU in Rochester again, but if we had to give up one of home games it should be to UB. Way bigger alumni bases in both Buffalo and Rochester.
Before I get torn apart for this last idea, why not try playing a game in Erie? I know at first it sounds crazy, but it would be much easier to get a team like Pitt, WVU, Ohio St, Cincy, Clev. St., Akron, Toledo, Kent St to play in Erie being that it's a much closer destination.
They have a brand new arena which use to have a capacity of ~6,700, but with renovations it looks like it could hold over 7K, which shouldn't be a problem.
I know the Erie area isn't as big of an alumni base as Buffalo-Roc-Syr, but when you factor in that Erie is less than two hrs from Bona, Buffalo, Cleveland and Pittsburgh, that would mean you could tap into roughly the 4,000 alums that are in a two-hour area.
It would probably be a long shot, but I know Bona admissions is looking to grow student enrollment it the eastern Ohio and western PA area, so it might be an attractive location.
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Post by Bona84 on May 21, 2014 12:23:33 GMT -5
I think most would agree with your basic points, pinnum. It's moving a game against a team that will readily play at the Reilly Center that I and others disagree with.
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Post by tastylicks on May 21, 2014 12:30:39 GMT -5
You're getting caught up in the numbers and not what they represent. You think they are equal but they are not. Games at the RC draw the same fans game in and game out. Having 13 games at the RC is not likely to command a higher season ticket price than a 12 game home slate. In fact the laws of diminishing returns comes into play as they market is saturated. Additionally, the one game will not likely increase in an increase in alumni giving, or an increase in enrollment, which are two vital metrics that the University needs to address. It is no secret that average attendance, both by the local community and the student body, has diminished over the years. In fact, in the last five years, home attendance and the on the court performance have seemed to be an inverse function rather than moving in concert as you would assume. The local community in Olean is not in a position to support the program financially. The population has declined and the income per capital is also down. The SBU program can not derive the type of support that is needed to sustain a program in the Atlantic 10 if they take such a narrow approach. Falling short of the goal to raise $50k for the BAF should have been an eye opener for a lot of people. Not only did SBU fall short but the target was missed by nearly 50%. So what is needed? SBU needs to engage more of their alumni, increase the reach of their brand, and needs to continue to have a standard of excellence. When SBU has 4,000 at the RC it is not equal to having 4,000 at FCN or BCA. There are, probably, no fewer than 2,000 people with a connection to, or interest in, SBU attending the game that will not be visiting the SBU campus that year. This is important and it is necessary that the school engage this group. Additionally, they are able to charge higher ticket prices, not only for the novelty of a D1 basketball game (in the case of BCA) but also because these areas have the means, economically, to support the higher prices. Even if you say, as kcSBU03 did, that 20% of those in attendance are cheering for the opposition, it is that 20% that is covering the facility usage enabling SBU to engage their alumni and hopefully generate more donations and more high quality applicants. The Little Three series is still important to a lot of people. But the significance of the game is greater to the older generations (often a target demographic for the very important estate giving). The largest concentration of these groups are located in the Buffalo and Rochester metro areas. Bringing the game to them and engaging them is very important to SBU. I'm well versed in fundraising. I know how it works and I can follow what you are saying, but I still disagree with you completely. You are right, drawing 4,000 at the RC vs. at the BCA is not equal. The university is probably making more money when it's at the RC overall, i don't know how you can argue against that. Sure - they can charge higher ticket prices at the BCA, but they also have to split the pie at the end of the night with the BCA itself. Or the FNC, which I heard is expensive. Having people in house, spending their money at your place directly, exposing people that come with them to the university definitely is more attractive. That changes if you play a big name in the BCA or if you attract many more people. Playing a Niagara, which would play at your place anyway doesn't do that. As for fundraising, it's silly to suggest playing Niagara in another building is advantageous in fundraising. For starters, it's such a long shot anyway that someone would be reinvigorated to donate based upon a basketball game in their city. Secondly, the Bona people that would come to a Niagara game are likely the same people that WOULD come to the RC at some point. It's not drawing in loads of alumni that otherwise wouldn't be interest in the University or the basketball team. It's NIAGARA we're talking about. (a fine school, but let's get real here) If they are really doing something like this for fundraising then they got fundraising all wrong. (not to mention basketball scheduling). There are way more influential ways to engage your alumni and inspire giving. Scheduling a basketball game in their city against a MAAC opponent seems like a cheap, desperate ploy to fundraise and if I know anything about fundraising, it's that folks who give HATE cheap, desperate ploys to fundraise.
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Post by Pinnum on May 21, 2014 12:32:10 GMT -5
I will mention another program I have some familiarity with. Take a look at UConn's schedule from this past year. You will see that they split their 'home' games between their campus (Gampel Pavilion) and the XL Center 45 Minutes away in Hartford. Based on most of the arguments on this thread, I would guess that people would say UConn should only go to Hartford for big games or games that will attract a lot of fans. However that is not the case. They work to balance their schedule between the two venues: www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/m-baskbl/sched/conn-m-baskbl-sched.htmlXL Center (Hartford, CT) Biggest Non-Conference Game - Stanford 11,140 Ivy League Game - Yale 8,848 Gampel Center (Storrs, CT) Biggest Non-Conference Game - Florida 10,167 Ivy League Game - Harvard 9,218 The reason for the split, and taking on the added expense of hosting games at the second venue 40 minutes away is because it keeps games rare in each area helping to keep ticket prices higher. Additionally, they are able to reach a lot more sponsors and donors in Hartford that are vital to funding their program.
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