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Post by spils84 on Jul 14, 2014 11:16:54 GMT -5
I always thought the 9 hours of Philosophy and 9 hours of Theology were fine. I always had one huge pet peeve though. The University also never really celebrated the Feast of St Francis - no day off - no big outside mass - pretty much nothing. I'm sure there would have been a mass said in a chapel somewhere. We couldnt afford to lose a day of classes because we wanted a longer thnxgvng break or longer xmas break? This saint is why the University even exists - not worthy of a full day of recognition? Especially when it luckily falls in the 1st week of October when the campus is at its best. In an effort to steer the conversation away from the inane notion of a School of Law at Bonas, I will respond to jh's comments about the Feast of St. Francis. As I recall, in the early 1980s there were no classes held on October 4, which gave students like me ample time to pause and reflect (while giving others time to drink beer and play golf). My kid, who attended Bonas from 2010-14, never got the day off from classes. However, according to the following press release, the school does offer a variety of lectures about Francis and his heritage. Whether or not students avail themselves to these programs is altogether another matter. www.sbu.edu/about-sbu/news-events/latest-news/news-release/2013/09/27/st.-bonaventure-university-prepares-for-francis-week-celebration
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Post by efsboca on Jul 14, 2014 11:28:50 GMT -5
And you are a practicing member of the state bar? Yea, give me a break - more pontificating from a non lawyer. I am, so let me pontificate. Pinnum is absolutely correct. Tier rankings of schools are not always indicative of an individuals success after attendance, they are at least a base line indicator of the work ethic and smarts of the general populace attending the school (and many of those third tier schools provide a fine education, but took many years to get there). The bar passage rates are indicative as well, as Florida has a relatively difficult bar exam, and the only year available to date showed a pitiful performance from the graduating students at Ave Maria. That said, JFK Jr. went to Brown for undergrad and NYU for law school ( I think) and it took him 6 times to pass the NY bar, so again, the tier levels are generalities more than indicators of individual capabilities. Ave Maria (where a friend is an adjunct professor) and Barry University (another Catholic law school) are both trying to grow, but are expensive and have access to some fine attorneys that can teach while they practice law, due to their locations in Naples and Orlando, respectively. The resources that were put into those schools are significant, far more than we can spare at this critical juncture, and a Law School at Bonas would require more full-time professors rather than adjunct due to the location. I don't know accreditation standards, but I believe the school would have to have a segregated library and at the very least, its own building (which would have to be substantial in size and capabilities). Not an option, and it is not a good idea. If I could not get into another school because I had bad grades and really wanted to be a lawyer, I'd apply, but anyone worth a grain would look elsewhere. A Japanese diplomat once said regarding the number of lawyers in the US, that Japan has few law schools and doesn't promote law as a field of study, they prefer engineering and other endeavors. He was quoted as saying something like, engineers build the pie and make it bigger, while lawyers just divide the pie up. Another crappy law school is not needed. Thanks for allowing me to pontificate.
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Post by Bona84 on Jul 14, 2014 14:06:07 GMT -5
And you are a practicing member of the state bar? Yea, give me a break - more pontificating from a non lawyer. I am, so let me pontificate. Pinnum is absolutely correct. Tier rankings of schools are not always indicative of an individuals success after attendance, they are at least a base line indicator of the work ethic and smarts of the general populace attending the school (and many of those third tier schools provide a fine education, but took many years to get there). The bar passage rates are indicative as well, as Florida has a relatively difficult bar exam, and the only year available to date showed a pitiful performance from the graduating students at Ave Maria. That said, JFK Jr. went to Brown for undergrad and NYU for law school ( I think) and it took him 6 times to pass the NY bar, so again, the tier levels are generalities more than indicators of individual capabilities. Ave Maria (where a friend is an adjunct professor) and Barry University (another Catholic law school) are both trying to grow, but are expensive and have access to some fine attorneys that can teach while they practice law, due to their locations in Naples and Orlando, respectively. The resources that were put into those schools are significant, far more than we can spare at this critical juncture, and a Law School at Bonas would require more full-time professors rather than adjunct due to the location. I don't know accreditation standards, but I believe the school would have to have a segregated library and at the very least, its own building (which would have to be substantial in size and capabilities). Not an option, and it is not a good idea. If I could not get into another school because I had bad grades and really wanted to be a lawyer, I'd apply, but anyone worth a grain would look elsewhere. A Japanese diplomat once said regarding the number of lawyers in the US, that Japan has few law schools and doesn't promote law as a field of study, they prefer engineering and other endeavors. He was quoted as saying something like, engineers build the pie and make it bigger, while lawyers just divide the pie up. Another crappy law school is not needed. Thanks for allowing me to pontificate. Not another building! It would probably just further block the view of the Heart.
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Post by az63 on Jul 14, 2014 14:09:53 GMT -5
And you are a practicing member of the state bar? Yea, give me a break - more pontificating from a non lawyer. I am, so let me pontificate. Pinnum is absolutely correct. Tier rankings of schools are not always indicative of an individuals success after attendance, they are at least a base line indicator of the work ethic and smarts of the general populace attending the school (and many of those third tier schools provide a fine education, but took many years to get there). The bar passage rates are indicative as well, as Florida has a relatively difficult bar exam, and the only year available to date showed a pitiful performance from the graduating students at Ave Maria. That said, JFK Jr. went to Brown for undergrad and NYU for law school ( I think) and it took him 6 times to pass the NY bar, so again, the tier levels are generalities more than indicators of individual capabilities. Ave Maria (where a friend is an adjunct professor) and Barry University (another Catholic law school) are both trying to grow, but are expensive and have access to some fine attorneys that can teach while they practice law, due to their locations in Naples and Orlando, respectively. The resources that were put into those schools are significant, far more than we can spare at this critical juncture, and a Law School at Bonas would require more full-time professors rather than adjunct due to the location. I don't know accreditation standards, but I believe the school would have to have a segregated library and at the very least, its own building (which would have to be substantial in size and capabilities). Not an option, and it is not a good idea. If I could not get into another school because I had bad grades and really wanted to be a lawyer, I'd apply, but anyone worth a grain would look elsewhere. A Japanese diplomat once said regarding the number of lawyers in the US, that Japan has few law schools and doesn't promote law as a field of study, they prefer engineering and other endeavors. He was quoted as saying something like, engineers build the pie and make it bigger, while lawyers just divide the pie up. Another crappy law school is not needed. Thanks for allowing me to pontificate. efsboca- great input
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Post by asscoach08 on Jul 14, 2014 16:59:46 GMT -5
I think the bigger question is - what is the goal of making improvements? More students? More money? Better academic scores? More athletic championships? More graduating Friars?
For those who remember their time on campus as "the golden years," remember that the university has always been changing to meet the needs of the times. What can we do to continue to offer a unique and meaningful experience to our students, faculty, and greater SBU family?
I know its not a simple question, and I don't think its a simple answer either. But the things that were important to a student in 1920 were very different from a student in 1960, and of course today's students look for much different things in a school.
I am not suggesting we poll the masses of high school seniors and just provide whatever they wish for, but to find a spot on the spectrum that aligns our school's history and resources with the desires and values of today's students. Although the answer may not be clear, the proof is quantitative - lower enrollment indicates a lack of ability to meet that need.
What do you think the goal of improvements or cuts or changes should be?
My favorite parts of my SBU experience were the personal attention to my life and academic performance, the ability to be empowered by the faculty and staff when I was willing, and the camaraderie that the campus programs and location offered. It was also close to home for me from Rochester, so regional factors were important as well.
How do we maximize those feelings for rising seniors and incoming freshman?
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Post by bbb on Jul 15, 2014 4:05:28 GMT -5
I'm Class of '84, and it seems to me that that era has an insane amount of highly successful graduates. Can I assume that that is the case for most eras? If so, we should be able to sell that.
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Post by firstdev on Jul 15, 2014 6:28:16 GMT -5
And you are of course the master of all discourse? This forum is about folks expressing their opinions on issues vital to this university. Please do not try to censor the opinions expressed here. A full and open forum is always more healthy than a forum that practices political correctness.
A Catholic Law School like Ava Maria, or Fordham or Duquesne or Creighton or Gonzaga or Catholic University is an asset to its educational community, just like an SBU law school would. Why else would this type of proposal have received major BoT support 30 years ago. This type of graduate education remains very popular with the students of today, and is a sure hit for our community. Its niche would be assured.
Ah yes, the famous Sneakers again..............
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Post by Pinnum on Jul 15, 2014 7:17:49 GMT -5
I am not going to beat a dead horse. We all know SBU will not add a law school. The decision makers are much smarter than that. There is no point in me arguing with you. It is pretty clear you lack any clout. Which is probably why you're so jaded when it comes to the administration.
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Post by Pinnum on Jul 15, 2014 7:29:02 GMT -5
I think the bigger question is - what is the goal of making improvements? More students? More money? Better academic scores? More athletic championships? More graduating Friars? For those who remember their time on campus as "the golden years," remember that the university has always been changing to meet the needs of the times. What can we do to continue to offer a unique and meaningful experience to our students, faculty, and greater SBU family? I know its not a simple question, and I don't think its a simple answer either. But the things that were important to a student in 1920 were very different from a student in 1960, and of course today's students look for much different things in a school. I am not suggesting we poll the masses of high school seniors and just provide whatever they wish for, but to find a spot on the spectrum that aligns our school's history and resources with the desires and values of today's students. Although the answer may not be clear, the proof is quantitative - lower enrollment indicates a lack of ability to meet that need. What do you think the goal of improvements or cuts or changes should be? My favorite parts of my SBU experience were the personal attention to my life and academic performance, the ability to be empowered by the faculty and staff when I was willing, and the camaraderie that the campus programs and location offered. It was also close to home for me from Rochester, so regional factors were important as well. How do we maximize those feelings for rising seniors and incoming freshman? I am not sure that there has been that much evolution of student courses of study. If you look at the top schools, they still put a lot of emphasis on the classics. The undergraduate study is about a broad set of knowledge and skills that allows someone to be able to think and quickly be trained in a job. This is different than the training of trades where kids are prepared for one specific job. SBU should not prepare people for a specific job but rather give them the skills that enable them to be able to learn any job. I think the school deviated from its strengths. The elite liberal arts college model is the model that needs to be utilized at SBU. Schools like Davidson should be the model not universities like Buffalo. I think the school made some poor decisions with the course offerings that has slowly lead to a decline in the student body. SBU is not getting the motivated students and the high achievers that it once was getting. This is not due to finances but rather the fact that high achieving students want to be around other high achieving students. The admissions stats needs to be raised. Community College transfers do not count in freshmen admission stats so they are a way to add in other students that just need an opportunity. Or use Hilbert for that... It is interesting that what separated SBU from the others wanting the NSF grant was the liberal arts college model that is so basic to the top small schools but was a recent development at SBU.
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Post by 5and23 on Jul 15, 2014 7:50:59 GMT -5
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Post by gdub2009 on Jul 15, 2014 8:02:28 GMT -5
Since someone keeps bringing up creating a law school, might as well create a med school. I am pretty sure the medical school would do a lot better than the law school. Now we just need someone to fund a medical school for us.
On a serious note, how many days till the college basketball season starts?
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Post by Pinnum on Jul 15, 2014 8:03:36 GMT -5
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Post by Pinnum on Jul 15, 2014 8:20:47 GMT -5
Since we should get back on track with some actual ideas to help the school and athletics...
I have often wondered why SBU doesn't create more ties to Rochester. This is now happening with basketball, which is good. But one thing I have thought for a while that I think could be beneficial would be a joint bid with the city of Rochester and SBU to host the NCAA Men's College Cup. Sahlen's stadium is the perfect sized and quality venue for the event and the city has been very supportive of soccer over the years. I know the city has tried to increase the number of events at the venue and they would like to attract championship NCAA events.
This event would help market the city and SBU both in the region where soccer is popular, as well as nationally.
Obviously there are financial risks but a lot of times the host city's visitor/conference/sports bureau will assume the risk for the right to host with the school being the proxy host to meet the terms of the bid.
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Post by 123Rob on Jul 15, 2014 10:18:19 GMT -5
Pinnum, I am with you 100% on this thought. Rochester is the largest city in America without a D1 college--except for RIT hockey and their new Polisseni Arena. (If only we had an alum with that name). The City of Rochester is trying to do more with Sahlen's Stadium. Each City HS with a team played a soccer and/or football game there last fall. However, the city government is a hot mess. I would rather see Bona's incur the financial risk and go it alone. Also, while it is true that Rochester has been a huge supporter of soccer in the past, neither the Rhinos or Flash are drawing well anymore. Only Abby Wambach can draw them in numbers (if only we had an alum with that name). I'd rather see SBU play a men's and women's double header and market heavily to the youth programs to come see D1 soccer. The city was alleged to be paying some obscenely high fee to former NFLer and native son Roland Williams to consult on reviving HS football and hold clinics. Maybe if Bona's agreed to hold some clinics in conjunction with any event we held at Sahlen's , the city might knock down the rent a bit. I know you are not behind the idea of adding men's lax but if we ever could/do, then Sahlen's would be a great venue to showcase Bona's. A soccer DH on a beautiful crisp fall afternoon, an annual basketball game at Blue Cross and a lax double header in a driving snow in early March would go along way to elevate our brand in Rochester.
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Post by Pinnum on Jul 15, 2014 11:16:41 GMT -5
123Rob - You're right about Rochester. But most times, the city does very little work. Typically they just underwrite the event, pass resolutions giving support of resources, and pound their chest about how they made it possible for the city to be given such an honor to host an NCAA event.
I still think the demand for soccer is still there. The Rhinos are a shell of their former selves. When they were drawing 10-15k fans to games they were competing with MLS teams for players and winning the US Open Cup. Now they have been relegated to a minor league team (for the NE Revolution) and don't have the payroll to compete with MLS. The WNY Flash are one of the best drawing teams in their league and are financially stable. They draw nearly as well as the Rhinos. For a women's pro team they draw well.
I think the soccer fans would turn out to see Indiana vs Maryland or UCLA vs Virginia or whoever is playing in the College Cup because it is high level championship soccer.
If SBU had MLax, I would be in total agreement with you. That would be a great way to showcase the program. However, SBU does not have a program and I don't see a way that it can take on the financial burden of operating a program in a way that would maximize the resources.
I am all about using sports to connect the community (alumni, prospective students, general sports fans) to the school. I am not sure that a SBU baseball game at Frontier field would draw but I wouldn't be opposed to a game that was an alumni outing that served beer and invited prospective students to meet with admissions to answer questions.
Edit: Also, thanks for the information on Williams and the City High School football. I am offended. One of the most absurd proposals I have ever read.
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